I'm looking for some assistance in determining what to consider when selecting a round for my shot gun.
I currently have a Beretta White Wing Over/Under 12 gauge shotgun that is my back up home defense weapon. It is chambered for 2 &3/4 or 3 inch shells (hope I have that right).
My problem is the construction of my house. Below is my very feeble attempt at being an architect. The roundish unmarked area is the enclosed sun room. The bedrooms across from each other have sliding glass doors and their is a door near the garage. The rest of the room is all windows (subject for another day).
(drawing not to scale or entirely accurate but concept and arrangement is accurate)
So, I'm concerned about over penetration definitely.
I have been looking for an acceptable home defense load for the shotgun, any suggestions?
I've read a little bit and I'm leaning toward something like #4 shot but honestly don't know enough to know if I'm in the right ball park.
Since I don't believe in having a firearms without ammunition, I picked up a couple 5 round boxes of double 00 buck shot.
One of the great things about this community of our is the willingness of others to help and teach others...I never forget how much every person is willing to share with the newbies like me.
Any advice or suggestions welcomed and appreciated
22 comments:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm
boxotruth.com has some entertaining test results using all kinds of different ammo against all kinds of barriers.
Pasting the above url to your browser should get you to the shotgun vs drywall.
I'd say 2.75" #4 Buckshot will do you VERY well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMv2z_PX7s0
Here's a video of Mas Ayoob in New Hampshire giving his recomendation of #3 and #4 buck. I have a hard time arguing with that guy.
Still I prefer heavy projectiles, I keep #00 Buckshot as my HD load in 2.75" shells.
Honestly if you look at the ballistics, and note that shotgun pellets act as individual projectiles, not as a group, you're actually looking at something that resembles small pistol ballistics, just a LOT of them.
So shooting a 12 Gauge 2.75" shell with #00 is more-or-less identical to dumping the entire mag of a Bersa Thunder .380 ACP into the target at ONE pull of the trigger.
#3 might be closer to a mag dump from a Scorpion Machine Pistol.
So really each individual pellet is actually very unimpressive...but the volume of fire a shotgun offers, the probability of one or two of those pellets (given you're using above listed buckshot and not birdshot) doing something critical is quite high, and compounded that the other shots, while possibly not critical hits are still doing damage. The Cumulative damage of a single landed shot is VERY impressive.
Still, penetration is still on the small pistol scale. Building materials make VERY lame bullet stops, so you WILL shoot through walls doors and wall studs with ANY effective defensive load, but you won't have to worry about rifle or slug level of over penetration.
Short answer, you're gonna shoot through walls with ANYTHING that will effectively stop a goblin, #4-#000 shot will ALL do you well if your life or the life of your family is on the line. (Mas Recommends #4 or #3, Weer'd recommends #00) you'll need to mitigate your overpentration through other means, as all buckshot loads WILL shoot through walls...and they'll shoot through walls as well as your handguns do.
Best of luck, and hopefully you'll never need to put any of this grim business to the test.
James / Weer'd,
Thanks for the advice. I'll check out Box of Truth. I had forgotten to scope that out in my research.
#3 or #4 or 00 Buck all seems like it will do the job, I just wanted to verify what I thought.
Appreciate it much
Double Ought if you insist on a shotgun and if you really care about over penetration while penetrating what you are shooting at .223/5.56mm NATO works well from a rifle. Primary reason many police agencies went from 870s and 1100s to AR platform rifles.
Shotgun groups don't open up enough in the short ranges inside a home enough for them to qualify as the mythical "point it in the general direction and you'll likely hit them". You still have to aim.
I'd rather have 20 or 30 (or 42 or 52) rounds of .223SP in a M-4-a-like than 8 rounds of buckshot in a more cumbersome firearm. Reloads are easier and faster too. Yes, you can get pistol grip shotguns. They suck to shoot in many ways. When the USMC issues 12 gauge with buck as it's primary combat arm, then I'd consider it, i.e. NEVER. But you own what you own so the bigger and heavier the buck, the better and remember YOU DO HAVE TO AIM.
May be divergent from your question but it's something worth considering.
More than one case of people being shot at POINT BLANK RANGE with light buck or bird shot and sustaining very minor injuries, considering. Most especially if they are wearing winter clothing/leather jackets/etc.
The advice from Mr. Zachary and Weer'd is very good. I'd listen to it.
So far as using #4 buckshot, it was considered by many experts for some decades to be the ultimate home defense round. I don't share the same level of enthusiasm for #4 buck myself, but it is an extremely wise choice.
James
Load the first chamber with #7 birdshot. When the first round goes off and hits it's intended target (I hope you're aiming for the neck and face area), family members inside the house will hear it and know to hit the ground. Practice this drill (using a sound other than an actual shotgun round going off), so that they'll know to hit said ground when the time comes (and I hope it never does). Then, with the #4 shot or #00 in the second chamber, you can take out the intruder, if he's still standing. Other than that, aim for the head and neck area, so that any errant shot goes through walls higher up so that it's sure to miss anybody that's in bed. And anyone who would have heard the first shot would have hit the ground before the second shot goes off.
Folks,
Thanks for the help and the advice. It is one of the greatest things I appreciate about our community, the willingness to help.
Tom- I'm working on getting an utility rifle for home defense. Unless I win the lottery any time soon, I have to work off a budget. And for some reason my wife and kids expect eating instead of shooting to be a higher priority. Go figure.
James - Thanks, if you don't share the enthusiasm, what would you recommend instead? I'm interested in learning what others think and why.
OrangeNeckInNY - great idea. I'm not sure with only 2 chambers that I would go that route but it is something to consider. I like the idea of using a birdshot round --aimed at a villian-- as a warning to the family. I'll definitely consider it when I upgrade to a pump shotgun.
I think like a guy with no wife and kids because I have no wife and kids in the house anymore. No offense intended.
Orange
In Texas we don't do warning shots. If you can hit him in the face with buckshot why shoot the bastards with bird shot that may well not do much, depending on range and conditions?
My CHL Instructor friend Calvin, Police Officer, State Patrol also:
If he is worth shooting kill him, DO NOT WASTE ROUNDS ON WARNING SHOTS, remember the first shot will likely cost you 100k in civil suits even if you get no-billed so kill him. Do not wound or warn. This would most especially be something to take into account on Ammo choice purposes for Bob's Beretta White Wing Over/Under 12 gauge shotgun as he only has two shots to begin with if the intruder is anywhere close to him.
If it's worth shooting it's worth killing. NO MERCY. This ain't New York.
No offense intended but I don't think you grasped the exercise being proposed nor Texas law.
For the record, I've been SHOT MYSELF with #7 bird shot by the idiot brother of a friend while hunting rabbits at reasonably close range, 15-20 yards or so. Me in blue jeans vs Winchester XX field loads and it barely broke the skin and where my cowboy boots were in the way it didn't even do that. Got my attention and indirectly broke friend's brother's nose after the fact :-) but wasn't anything close to fatal. Was marginally more painful than getting shot by a paintball in cold weather or a BB gun, which is really what a shotgun is.
Dunno about you but we used to intentionally have BB gun wars as kids in spite of the warnings that "you could put an eye out."
Deer and humans are about the same size around here, as often as not. If it's not a shotgun round you'd use to hunt deer with I don't see why you'd think to use it on a person. So we're back to buckshot, aren't we? ESPECIALLY if you only have TWO ROUNDS. After two rounds you probably would have a better chance with butt strokes than reloading.
"James - Thanks, if you don't share the enthusiasm, what would you recommend instead? I'm interested in learning what others think and why."
I spoke poorly and didn't make myself clear. I actually use #4 buck for my own inside-the-house defense, because I am concerned about overpenetration. Just like you.
What I should have said was that "#4 buck is probably the best indoor self defense round, but I don't agree with the really enthusiastic fans who insist that it is the best for all situations."
OrangeNeckinNY suggested birdshot in the first shell fired. The noise will alert your family, but won't penetrate enough to endanger them.
I always tell my students to imagine an after. What happens after you have to use deadly force to save your life, or your loved ones?
The answer is that you will most probably have to explain your actions in court. This might be a criminal court, which is unlikely if the perp was shot inside of your home. But there is a fairly good chance that you will have to come in front of a judge in a civil court even if it is a justified shooting.
What are you going to say about shooting some guy in the face with birdshot, anyway?
"Oh, I knew that the birdshot would most likely only wound and blind the intruder. I planned it that way! The scheme, which is right there on my blog for all to see, was to deliberately cause as much pain and disfigurement by using a load that I was almost certain wouldn't do the job of stopping the threat. The noise would alert my family to trouble, you see, while still allowing me to slaughter the screaming victim of my actions while he blundered around, blind and helpless, with his ruined eyes dribbling down his cheeks."
Bob, why don't you just yell a warning to your family instead?
James
James,
Great point. Change in plans, no bird shot.
@James, thanks for seconding me.
Just ran by friends to pick up some Encore bits.
He owns a gun shop and has kids. He keeps a shotgun for self defense loaded with Number 4 LEAD turkey loads and/or buck, not steel shot. He also has a bandolier he keeps with it 20 rounds of everything from flash-bangs and slugs to flechettes. He likes the ammo versatility and being able to thumb in a slug or less lethal if need be BUT he is using a autoloader, not a O/U bird gun.
His vote for "some random acquaintance of mine" is "nothing less than number 4 turkey loads if you only have 2 shots".
I didn't really HAVE to go visit today but he just got one of THESE in. Tom drooled on it a bit. 20mm version. Now THAT is home defense!
Regards,
Tom
(Who is wondering if maybe he wants to sell his Jensen car and buy a rifle with the proceeds...)
Yeah yeah! NO STEEL SHOT! Steel sucks ass and even a heavy #00 steel load might fail to penetrate enugh to do stopping damage.
Not only do serious Shotgun HD guys use lead, but many propose PLATED lead. I'm not so sure it the plating make much of a difference m'self, but I also don't think it a bad idea.
Steel is just too light and doesn't get enugh velocity to do any serious damge.
Oh another option is to check out the "Tactical" buckshot loads. "Tactical" is a manly way of saying "Lower Velocity" and therefore lower recoil. I suspect it will still do the job, but at marginally less over-penetration.
Still with me I'm concerned with UNDER Penetration on the attacker with a shotgun, so I use standard 2.75" loads of #00.
What if you WANT to shot through walls and furniture because the burglar is on his way to your child's bedroom?
'Nother thing to think about. I'd got with perhaps lighter (NOT LIGHT) load of 4 or 1 or 2 followed by serious buck in #2 barrel.
My two cents.
As August pointed out, "if you didn't have Raufoss and Tungsten core AP mixed in your home defense 5.56mm mags, I'd argue the shotgun with a bandolier like mine is a better choice"..."plus you don't have a spouse or kids and have more land..."
Everything is a compromise.
Several things. Since you're talking about home protection, first I assume that you yould never be more than 20-30 yards from your target correct?
What kind of choke is on the gun?
If you're shooting full choke at 20 yards I would not hesitate to shoot birdshot, hell the smaller the better! 9 shot you say? Pshah! you say? No think about it. 9 shot full choke 12 guage at that range is perfect, especially if you are worried about your shots penentrating walls and causing innocents to get hurt.
As your choke decreases, you increase the size of your shot.
tom, dude....you'd never want to shoot through walls hoping to get the bad guy if you got kids in the house. If you can't see it, don't shoot at it.
If you're out hunting deer with your family, you wouldn't shoot at a rustling in the bushes.
Very good point about shooting attackers through walls.
Still, Sekan, your comment about birdshot is not accurate. Remember shotgun pellets act as individual projectiles, there's just lots of them released every pull of the trigger. If one tiny birdshot BB will fail to penetrate much deeper than the target's dermis 100 such pellets aren't going to do much better.
Sure you could aim for the face and neck where vital shit isn't buried very deep, and defecate things like eyes are, but as James pointed out that will be VERY tough to defend in a court of law when you horribly maim an attacker with bird.
Bottom line ANYTHING to be considered for self defense should penetrate at LEAST 12" of calibrated ballistic gell. In shotguns you're gonna need at LEAST #4 shot....as I've said before I prefer something a bit bigger and heavier so I rock #00 in my scatter-gun.
My home protection involves acres and if I know a guy is hiding behind a door or a car door or behind the wood pile or a couch I WILL SHOOT HIM through the door or couch etc.
You live in a different world than I do so don't judge me. If you don't pick a fight with me you walk home or drive home. If you pick a fight on MY property (not owned by any bank, although insured) you very well may not walk away.
I believe you JUST DON'T GET IT. I don't live in apartment land or sleeping baby in the other room land. I act and will act accordingly.
tom, nobody is picking a fight, judging etc. No need to go off half cocked.
Just came to comment.
Beard, understood. If you intend to kill then at least a goose load would be needed, huh?
You never did say what choke pattern you had.
Of course if you're shooting slugs it doesn't matter!
sekan
If a shotgun is the only weapon you have for home defense, use it. But don't fool around with warning shots- as indicated earlier, CCW teaches to not give warning shots. One reason is you can be prosecuted for discharging your firearm. Another practical reason is that you have wasted one shot you may need for defensive purposes.
As to which shot to use, don't use anything less than goose shot- buckshot. Personally, I'd use slugs if I had to depend on a shotgun for defense.
The reality of a hostage situation is too great if one has family present: any multi-projectile shot is going to be too dangerous to use in such a situation, so slugs are the only way to go: but you'd better practice lots to be accurate with a shotgun (or any weapon)in a dimly lit situation, such as flashlights or 'strobes' or room light from street lamps, nitelights, etc. (This inferring you aren't flicking on lights as you travel through the rooms as you clar.)
With shotguns, a full choke is preferable since it keeps the pattern tighter. A modified or improved cylinder choke will open the pattern more readily (read 'at closer distance'). Sawed off barrels will open it even more quickly.
If you're keeping a weapon in the house for protection, keep it loaded and one in the chamber with the safety off- you don't need to forget to do something when the adrenaline is pumping faster than a Maseratti. Don't be fumbling around trying to remember more than you need to.
The length of any weapon used indoors must be considered, and most off the rack shotguns are simply too long and cumbersome to be used in hallways and small rooms (though your layout seems to have only one narrow hallway). Even a short barreled rifle is a hundrance, slower to get into use. In other words, as one has suggested: PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE!
Try 'clearing' a room using your shotgun, slice the pie with it, decide how comfy you'd feel doing so in a real situation. Practice it til you can do it in your sleep at zero-dark-thirty with no lights.
Then go out and buy yourself a pistol or revolver and learn to use it well.
As to shooting through household items: if you are certain the BG is behind a sofa/whatever, with no hostage, why be concerned with not shooting cuz you can't 'see' him? He won't have the same concern for you.
If a shotgun is all you have, use it. If you are willing, it will be enough. But personally, give me a handgun.
Shy III
Shouting to alert your family would also alert the intruder, which would probably cause him to charge you, or turn tail and run away.
Okay, ixnay on the birdshot. A pump shotgun, with its universally recognized sound of a round being racked, would definitely get the intruder's attention. He'll most likely turn and run.
How about using a #5 or a #6 shotshell? Wouldn't that be a fair compromise between taking down an intruder and overpenetration?
OrangeNeckInNYBob still only has a O/U bird gun as backup. It isn't going to make the "cool" chunk chunk sound of an 870 or Mossberg nor have magazine capacity beyond TWO ROUNDS and then it's butt stroke time.
He has 2 shots with it. I'd go with #4 LEAD and nothing less.
Capiche?
@sekan
I DID NOT SAY "YOU PICKED A FIGHT" nor did I go off half cocked. I explained how our relative home defense situations might differ.
I said "if a person were to pick a fight with me on my property, I'm aiming to send them home in a meat wagon..."
Was no personal assault, verbal or otherwise, intended on my part. Was a general statement.
Regards,
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