Looking at the myth that firearm availability is the predominate or major factor in "gun violence" brings us to suicide.
In Part 1, I presented evidence showing that there was greater correlation between poverty and homicide rates than there was correlation between firearm ownership and homicide rates by state.
That wasn't enough for some people. They claim we shouldn't exclude suicide from the comparison. I disagree because if someone truly wants to end their life, NOTHING is going to stop them. Most people who use suicide attempts as a cry for help don't want to be successful thus choice methods that are less likely to succeed.
Even still, let's demolish the myth a little more
Country Ownership Suicide Rate
Russia 9 32.2
Finland 20.1 32
Japan * 23.7
Ukraine 9 22.6
Serbia 37.5 19.5
France 32 17.6
Switzerland 46 17.6
Austria 31 15.6
Sweden 31.5 13.3
New Zealand 26.8 13.2
Germany 30 13
Canada 31.5 11.4
United States 90 11.1
Australia 15.5 10.9
India 4 10.6
South Africa 13.1 10
Argentina 12.6 8.7
Spain 11 7.8
Thailand 16 7.8
Italy 12.1 7.1
United Kingdom 5.6 6.8
Colombia 7.2 5.7
Brazil 8.8 4.3
Mexico 15 4.1
Greece 23 3.5
Philippines 4.7 2.1
Iran 5.3 0.2
Wikipedia is the source for both set of statistics.
As you can see from the chart, the country with the highest suicide rate doesn't have the highest firearm ownership rate. That alone should end the debate, right?
Finland, the country with the twelth highest firearm ownership rates is nearly tied with Russia. So, isn't that a strong indication there are other factors besides firearm ownership at work in suicide rates?
America with the highest level of firearm ownership is 13th in suicide rates.
Also, for the final evidence destroying this myth - JAPAN. Firearm ownership in Japan is practically non-existent!! Read that again, personal firearm ownership in Japan is practically non-existent, yet their suicide rate is the 3rd highest.
So, doesn't that definitely disprove that firearm ownership is the major factor in suicide?
Deloge
1 day ago
22 comments:
I think you would find a better correlation between alcohol and drug usage as part of the culture and more suicides as well as an inverse relationship between strong religious traditions (outside of martyr type/suicide bomber type acts) and suicide. Anybody can kill themselves. It doesn't take a gun.
I personally have known (remember my honky tonk music business involvement):
2 people that hung themselves, one girl who drove her car off a cliff, and one definite and one probable drugs overdose to go with the one person (Minor Texas C&W singer Johnny Little) that shot himself in the head.
One involved a marital fight, one involved the death of a spouse, one involved the breaking up of a relationship.
THEY ALL INVOLVED heavy alcohol and drug usage and all but one of the above were intoxicated at time of suicide.
Those are my empirical correlations. Firearms availability doesn't enter into the equation at all, does it?
FWIW: They ALL owned guns.
BUT YOU HAVE A WIFE AND KIDS AND A JOB, BOB!111!11 HOW DID YOU FIND TIME TO COMPILE ACTUAL DATA IN AN INFORMATIVE FASSION!!!11!!
ALSO YOU HAVE ONLY BEEN DEBATING THE GUN ISSUE FOR A HANDFULL OF MONTHS!!11!!!1!!!!
IMPOSSIBLE YOU MUST WORK FOR THE NRA AND YOU ARE THE PERSON WHO STRONGARMS THE FBI AND ATF TO FORCE THEM TO RELEASE COOKED DATA!!!!111!!ONEONE!!!ELEVENTY11!!
*snicker*
Great post!
Hey he hasn't posted here in a while, does a certain somebody still read your blog?
Be nice to mikey, he's still in 2nd grade reading comprehension! You big MEANIE!
Weer'd,
He reads, he comments on non-firearm related posts occasionally.
I started this blog so I could get in on the "wheel barrows of cash" the NRA throws around to us in the "paid gun lobby". So far, I've been greatly disappointed, NO CASH.
Maybe I need to update my address with the NRA.
The NRA, GOA, JPFO, and the DOJ/ATF/FBI all know who I am, what I do, what I write, and where I live, and not a one of them has ever sent me money. They do, however, send requests for MY money.
Don't hold your breath :-)
Off topic Question for a Bob-man:
I have a birthday this week and I can go see Dale Watson or Gary P Nunn and I know and like them both, but time and ~gf will only go for one or the other.
I'm leaning towards Dale Watson. What do you think as a fellow Tejas cabroncito? I know, you're a Yankee so I shouldn't be asking advice, being as you live north of Lampasas, but which would you pick? Tough call. ~GF would likely like Gary P more but I've seen him a bazillion times and done sound for him half of those bazillion times.
Only got to work with Dale a few times on shows and he's nicer as a person and more TRUE Texas country like Shaver and Willie...
I know....should ramble about this on my blog...
They're both real Texas pickers. But I have to "picker" one or the other. I always have fun at the Spoke anyway things work out.
BobS. What you need to do is suppress some govenment crime data, and blackmail an Anti-Gun senator to vote in favor of the latest NRA-Drafted law and you'll get a commission!
We get away with it because Anti-Gun people are simply apathetic.
Tho that MikeB guy is onto us! He'll unravel the whole conspiracy and our secret base hidden in area 51 and staffed by the Knights Templar, The Freemasons, the Grey Skinned Aliens and Skunkape!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skunk_Ape
But don't worry, I'll stop him by calling him a liar and claiming he lives in a basement apartment in New Jersey!
hehehhehe
Shit, I'm laughing too hard to type anymore.
God I hope Mike's reading this!
You shouldn't be laughing, you should be loading more rounds of death and child murder, weerd! Are you not an American??? Come on, children need to be shot on playgrounds so they can't die in school bus crashes or be molested by Italian fake ex-pats.
SO: Little boy walks in a bar and orders a "Pretend Ex-Pat".
Barman says "WTF kind of drink is that?"
Little boy says "It's the one I have to force down my throat and not tell anybody about when I visit Mike in New Jersey".
I dunno Tom, I think I have enough to burn down all the national forests in the nation, I'll load up some more when all the trees are charred!
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/5/21/733891/-CA-04:-Our-Brilliant-Rep-Votes-to-Start-Forest-Fires-in-National-ParksAid-Poachers
wahahahahahahaa
You know what you need, then? Thomas' .452 WTF dies and I'll mail you some brass and powder. :-)
Sometimes my arm gets tired on projects.
Man,
I'm not sure I should let you two play in my comments unmoderated :>
Look Bob, if the shoe fits, wear it!
heh, I'm having too much fun. Stop us if you think we're making a mess of the place.
Bob, Have you thought about the idea that comparing Japan to the US is like comparing apples to oranges. The real comparison would be if you could compare Japan with very few guns to a Japan with lots of guns. Doesn't common sense tell you that the number of suicides would go way up? Imagine all those half-hearted attempts with a razor that ended the guy up with a stay in the local psyche ward and some medication, imagine if they all had guns laying around. Ya think the number of suicides might have gone up?
MikeB,
Have you thought about the idea that comparing Japan to the US is like comparing apples to oranges.You are the one who keep claiming that availability is the problem, that more guns = more deaths, right?
Here is a piece of evidence that shows otherwise. Comparing across countries by themselves is difficult.
But look at some of the similar countries - Finland and Switzeralnd for example. Look at France and Italy. Similar cultures, similar laws, gun ownership levels different, right?
What you find is that availability does not correlate with suicide rates!
That is evidence that your theory is WRONG. If it was more guns = more deaths, shouldn't America be the highest suicide rate?
Doesn't common sense tell you that the number of suicides would go way up? Common sense will lie to you MikeB. It makes something sound reasonable when it is completely untrue. So, if your theory is right, the suicide rate for America should have been continually going up, right?
Gave me an idea. Check main post for edit.
i'm convinced that comparing statistics across countries is comparing apples to coconuts, most of the time.
heck, i had to go through some considerable culture shock moving here, and i came from a culture and background that's relatively similar to what i entered into. yet small as that difference supposedly is, having seen both sides of it, i wouldn't trust a comparison of statistics between my old home country and my new one; those "small" cultural differences just cut too deep. they're fundamental, they underlie every assumption of the statistics-gatherers, and they'd be the devil's own work to try and compensate for.
and that, to me, means you can't point to international statistics as any example of what manner of gun laws we ought to have or adopt; those statistics prove nothing for any country other than the one they're concerned with. you can't prove correlations across borders that way, which is basically Bob's point.
Nomen,
Exactly, the cultural differences are too great to make a statement like "more guns = more deaths" valid and the statistics prove that.
If I had only pointed to cross country stats, I would say that the comparison is flawed but as part of a greater study it is another brick in the wall.
I've missed you, Nomen. I love it when we agree.
MikeB,
Care to comment on the statistics other then dismiss them?
How about the totality of the statistics presented so far, any comments?
Across states, firearm availability doesn't correlate with crime rates as well as poverty. Point against the theory.
Across countries, firearm availability doesn't correlate with suicide rates. Point against the theory.
Across time in America, with firearms increasing - suicide rate doesn't correlate well. Point against theory.
What statistic, what evidence can I present to disprove the theory?
OOOPPSS, that was me.
Didn't realize wife had signed in on computer.
I'm pretty sure he doesn't want to comment on Stats, Bob.
As malakh said at my place:
" I seriously doubt you could get him to admit responsibility for taking a shit during the course of the day."
So deep runs the denial of reality of this one, I'm starting to speculate mental illness.
Thank goodness that was you Bob. I thought for a minute there I had another one of you guys to deal with. I find you (one of you) quite enough.
I'll get back to you on those stats.
Heh, like you have any interest to deal with this issue, or the people who support it.
I'll note you have posted 3 times on this issue thread, only one was actually concerning the issue of Gun Availability, and you haven't commented ONCE on the post that is a direct response to your ONE on-topic comment.
That's not dealing, that's AVOIDING!
But that's OK, on your blog you can delete the comments you think destroy your arguments too much.
This is why I call you Anti-Freedom (because all you want is less rights for your fellow man) and Pro-Ignorance (because you refuse to discuss the issue, and do all you can to limit the voices of the opposition)
If the Shoe fits, Mike, Wear it!
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